I know we have 20 minutes left in the episode, but I have to post this question...Did anyone else think Kevin was rowing down the River Denial so fast it's like the devil was on his heels? Wow! And those scenes between Karl and Van were great. (More thoughts later!)

I agree the scenes were great, but I didn't see denial. I saw Kevin telling Luke the truth and then being angry at how it was received.But I suppose you would know better than me if I should have seen something different!

Richard, we all see what we see. I'm not saying at all that you had to see it, too. That's why I was asking if it was just me!

I can understand why others might have seen that. But today Kevin seemed--I cannot believe I'm saying this--more honest about his feelings than Luke.I understand you can't offer up spoilers, and therefore probably won't tell me if Kevin is, in fact, going to turn out to be gay--but can you tell us if Noah will show up with Luke on Thursday? I hated the way they left things today.

I felt that neither Kevin or Luke were being honest with each other in those scenes. Seems to me there was a lot beneath the surface that neither of them were saying. And I guess that is what Noah is picking up on because he seems to sense something is there, but Luke is clearly avoiding answering him like he did today. And yes, those scenes were fantastic. Van was really, really good.

Yeah, it was really interesting to watch them go over what happened and then see how Luke justified things to Noah later. No matter which way he swings (and I honestly do NOT know), Kevin did put a lot more out there on the table than Luke did.Also, I don't who is airing on what day and how many scenes they have together. I'm more aware of general story arc and things like that.

I'm thinking if Kevin were gay and an actual threat to Luke and Noah's relationship, Jake might have mentioned that when you talked to him! So I'm going to hope that I'm right and Kevin was being honest today.While I really don't like Kevin, it was good to hear his side of things today. I wouldn't object to seeing his character redeemed--perhaps by convincing the school not to punish Luke for his bad behavior?--before he departs at the end of this arc.

An overall outstanding hour, from start to finish.....I enjoyed the whole thing today. Very, very well acted. I think Luke not looking Noah directly in the eye at the last scene, and dodging Noah's original question, was telling......he has some kind of unresolved feelings where Kevin is concerned...they may or may not be romantic feelings, maybe Luke wants to prove Kevin's no better than he is, or Luke wanting to hurt Kevin like Kevin hurt Luke.....but there's something there Luke has to prove to himself, and he'llprobably hurt Noah in the process....actually he already is, because Noah knows something's up and doesn't know what, or where it's coming from, and Noah's obviously scared of losing his first love over it....

I don't think Jake would necessarily tell Mala anymore than he has to to promote this portion of the storyline so that particular bomb might still out there waiting to be dropped.I hope that when Luke and Kevin come to some sort of resolution, whatever that may be that Kevin sticks around either as a friend to Luke or a potential rival for Noah (and the writers have talked about bringing him back). He's a good actor and he has certain charm. And he and Van play off each other very well. I was reminded of how much I liked them together in their scenes today.

One thing that was obvious (at least to me) was that there was a snipped scene between Aaron and Noah before Luke showed up (cue the conspiracy theories). Clearly they had been talking, probably about the lousy nights they'd had. Given that the episode was pretty busy moving along the story, I can see why it may have been cut, but it would've been interesting to see that scene. Maybe it'll appear as a deleted scene on ATWT.net someday.

Quote:I agree the scenes were great, but I didn't see denial. I saw Kevin telling Luke the truth and then being angry at how it was received.I agree with you on this. I think Kevin was boing honest and he isn't gay. I know a lot of people want him to be secretly gay but I didn't see anything today to suggest that.I also don't think there was a scene between Noah and Aaron that was cut. Sometimes we are to believe that certain things have happened. They don't have the luxury of showing everything and often just have to allude to it. I think that was the case here and doubt there was an actual conversation ever taped.I did think it was a good show. I think Kevin being brought back was a great idea and has added a lot to the story. Karl is very talented and the Kevin/Luke scene was a highlight of the day. I still am very unhappy however with where they are heading with Ali Lucinda was terrific today. I just hope they don't mess up this story like they did the first time with her cancer but I'm afraid that is what will happen again and it will become more about healing her relationship with Lily.

I agree with WT: I don't think there was an Aaron-Noah scene cut. Should there have been one? Would have been nice, yes--especially since they were both jealous of the same guy during the episode. But I doubt it ever existed.As for the Jake interview, my impression from Mala was that it would be in the issue we'll see next week, which would be about the week *after* the election and subsequent weeks. If Kevin's going to be revealed to be gay as part of this storyline, wouldn't it have to happen then?But again, I agree with WT: I don't think the show is going there. Thank heaven. I would feel bad for the gay teens watching the show who would take in the message that you can turn any guy gay if you just want him badly enough.

Yup, the contents of my call with Jake might not have had anything to do with Kevin. Hey, it's entirely possible we were discussing Fernando the Fairwinds hairdresser! Either way, I'm not sayin' nothin'.

And I love that there are always different perspectives on how a scene played out. People bring their own subtext and context and that's just neat. If we all saw the same things and got the same things out of the show, it just wouldn't be as fun!

Also, Richard - I don't know if I'd see it like a message that you can turn any guy gay if you want him badly enough, but rather that typical soap trope of "If I love you enough, you'll eventually love me back." (Passions Theresa using this approach on Ethan comes to mind.) Plus, there is the storyline possibility that Kevin's so deeply in the closet that he can't even process it. It could go any number of ways! But I do understand the fear of putting the wrong messages out there.

Mala--You already said you don't know which way Kevin swings! And I know the old soap trope. But ATWT has been mostly responsible with this storyline. And having Kevin turn out to be gay is not responsible. While gay teens may wish that every object of their desire would be secretly gay, it just doesn't work that way. Luke got lucky once with Noah. To have Kevin turn out to be gay, too, would be more than a stretch. It would send a very false message to an impressionable audience that has drawn comfort from this storyline.Much better, I think, to show both outcomes. Yes, sometimes you find your Noah when you fall for someone who isn't openly gay. But a lot of the time, you find your Kevin--a guy who may not actively hate gays but sure hates the idea that you think *he's* gay. Those guys exist, too; there are a lot more Kevins than Noahs out there. I pray ATWT doesn't pretend otherwise, and not just because I don't want to see Noah get hurt. I don't want all the Lukes of this world to get hurt, either.

Loved it! Just loved it!Van, Jake and Karl were all great. You could feel Luke's pain in that Luke/Kevin scene.I don't think Noah was scared or not willing to fight bigotry. After they saw the video, he didn't want Luke to stop. He wanted Luke to fight Kevin in an honest way. Without the dirty tricks like Kevin's campaign. He wasn't going to run away from bigotry. He was talking about strategy and stuff. I think Noah sees that this is getting way too personal. He's worried about Luke. And yeah, there is a little jealousy, but I don't think it has anything to do with Noah's issues about being gay.

Quote:Much better, I think, to show both outcomes. Yes, sometimes you find your Noah when you fall for someone who isn't openly gay. But a lot of the time, you find your Kevin--a guy who may not actively hate gays but sure hates the idea that you think *he's* gay. Those guys exist, too; there are a lot more Kevins than Noahs out there. I pray ATWT doesn't pretend otherwise, and not just because I don't want to see Noah get hurt. I don't want all the Lukes of this world to get hurt, either. The other thing I like about this approach is assuming they kept Kevin around, they could show Luke and Kevin rebuilding their friendship and that just because Luke is gay and was once attracted to Kevin doesn't mean it has to be the end of their friendship forever. Time has passed and Luke has moved past that and now loves Noah. I wouldn't want them to instantly be friends again but think it could be an interesting story with them rebuilding their friendship. It would be nice to show that Luke can have straight friends too since I have no confidence the friendship with Casey and Alison will last past this story.I do hope they decide to keep Kevin around. I think Karl is very good and I feel like Kevin has moved past the jerk he was when he was on before. I think it could lead to some interesting story.

No matter what happens, I would like to see Kevin and Luke come to terms and rebuild their friendship. They did grow up together.... it would be nice if they recapture that. As you say, Karl is a good actor and he and Van work very well together. As much as I like having Casey around, I doubt if they'll continue to interact much past this week or so. And Luke should have more people his age in his life other than his boyfriend.

"There was something in the HAIR that night, the stars were bright, Fernando......" And I enjoy reading everyone's take on the same episode too. If we all watched the same show and saw the same thing, then life would be pretty boring. It's the diversity that makes the world go 'round. Which is the whole point of Luke and Noah's story in the first place, and it's why I enjoy their story.....those two are teaching people everywhere that we're all just humans running the same race. I have learned a lot from watching their story, and I'm sure I'm not alone.And am I crazy, or is today the livelist episode discussion there's ever been here? It's really great to see so many people share what they think and what they took from today's great episode of the show.

Quote:One thing that was obvious (at least to me) was that there was a snipped scene between Aaron and Noah before Luke showed up (cue the conspiracy theories). Clearly they had been talking, probably about the lousy nights they'd had. Given that the episode was pretty busy moving along the story, I can see why it may have been cut, but it would've been interesting to see that scene. Maybe it'll appear as a deleted scene on ATWT.net someday. I said before I didn't think you were right. I stand corrected. This is the Aaron/Ali portion of the official recap of today's show:Aaron receives a wedding present and tries to give it to Alison at the hospital so she can return it to her friends. Susan lets him know that Alison will be at the campaign party at Yo

The part that made me wonder if the scene was shortened, is because Aaron was there at all.....first, I didn't think he would have been, had the original scene just been about Luke and Noah. Second, the shot composition - the opening shot didn't establish that Aaron was there, all we saw was the corner of his shoulder - so I just assumed that Aaron's presence was established, as is the proper way to do it, in an earlier portion of the scene that wasn't shown.

The scenes between Kevin and Luke today were so good. I'm also one who wants Luke and Kevin to resolve things and be friends again. I did love today's show, but I didn't like how Luke and Noah left things at the end. I hope they are both on Thursday. I like the storyline so far. My only issue is that it seems rushed. To speed up another Luke/Noah breakup? I wish they would give Luke and Noah a little bit of happiness and let them act like an actual couple.

I don't think it's any more rushed than any other storyline on this show. Things move pretty fast in Oakdale. Look how fast Brad and Katie went from being happily married to Katie out of a job and Katie worried about being divorced?

Yes, I felt the same way about the last Nuke scene we saw yesterday. I don't like when Luke&Noah argue and don't end their conversation by a reconciliation. But I think that Luke and Kevin should remain "ennemies" : they are at their best when they dislike each other. I liked their argument and I want to see Luke hating Kevin even after the election.

I like when Luke and Noah argue because Van and Jake sell it. However, I wish they would have talked about it more. It looks like Noah is not even going to be on tomorrow. I do not like that they are still not giving Noah much to do besides be upset at Luke. I still think they need more airtime when Casey and Alison seem to be getting it all. Speaking of Alison, I was uncomfortable watching the scenes today. Why can they show violence against women but not a tasteful love scene with Luke and Noah?

Mala, I was happy to see your "quick take " today. You'd think one of the benefits of a storyline about two men in love would be that none of the plot points would degrade women, but somehow the writers found a way! Bully for them. Mandeemarshe makes a good point. Viewers aren't offended by what happened today--but the world would end if Luke and Noah had sex? It just doesn't make sense.

Unfortunately, when it comes to soaps, it seems every opportunity to degrade a woman is always taken. I will never get it. It boggles my mind. I even ranted about it in my column in the magazine a few issues back, noting that I could probably write a column on the subject every week and never run out of examples.As for people being more offended by Nuke than by what happened with Alison... it's a sad commentary on humanity that the exploitation of women is far more acceptable in society than two people being in love.

I have to disagree that viewers aren't offended by what happened today. I've seen a awful lot of people that are very offended by it. Now obviously the writers don't think the viewers will find it offensive but as far as the actual viewers I have yet to see one person that thought it was necessary to the story and the majority I have seen, at least the women thought it was degrading and offensive..

Thank goodness for that. I really can't imagine anybody would be like, "Gee, that was great!"

WorldTurner, I think you're right that viewers were offended today. But as you say, the writers don't seem to worry about this sort of offense, and it evidently doesn't attract the same scrutiny from higher up that two men kissing does. Like Mala said, that's a sad commentary on where we're at.But it makes sense. For some reason, there's no organized decrying of ATWT and other soaps and the way they treat women. Just a slow drift of viewers away from the genre as more and more people are fed up. Meanwhile people who never did and never will watch the show get together, write letters, make phone calls, and scare the producers from letting a gay couple go all the way, something that might actually allow the show to hold onto all those new viewers it attracted last year.And people wonder why soaps are dying.

It's too bad TPTB really won't listen more to the viewers. And I'm not talking about what people want for their favorites but generalities across the board. I know plenty of women viewers that in general would like to see stronger women on soaps. Today was a perfect example of what is wrong. Not only what happened to Ali but then the way Margo handled it all! Yikes they made her look incompetent. How much evidence did she lose when she took no statements and told everyone to come back in the morning to take their statements? Wouldn't it have been best to question Ali immediately and maybe trigger a memory like the fact a video was being taken and maybe that could have been found before it was erased? How about actually checking that dorm room for evidence? And for a woman who proclaimed how concerned she is for women victims, she was so nonchalant with Ali. Why not have a doctor see her first to make sure she is okay and because she said she was slammed against the wall and perhaps there is evidence of an injury? And then she just sends her home with a uniform cop and doesn't bother to make sure she won't be alone or anything? The two green cops from the beginning probably could have done better! How much better the story could have been if she had done her job, showed concern for Ali and also her son. She was a disgrace as a cop instead! It would have been so much better to see how a strong woman handled this rather than a bumbling idiot!

I don't think the writers are thinking people will think it's great. I do think they think that it's riveting drama to see Alison being attacked. I also think they want you to feel bad for Alison after cheating on Aaron. Though I do feel bad for her, I did not need to see all that.Also, there should be nothing wrong with seeing two guys kiss or in bed together, but the show still isn't fully comfortable with Luke/Noah sexuality. If they show can't show them in bed yet, I don't see what is so wrong with letting Luke and Noah have a little fun together? After watching yesterday and today, sadly I still feel like Luke and Noah are supporting players. Today all the players were on except for Luke and Noah. Who knows how long Luke's appearance will be tomorrow and who knows if Noah will even be on. I'm hoping they will have more meaty material soon.

I agree with you. The show is affraid to show two guys kissing on a bed and "really" together, but they're not ashamed to "throw" to our faces the agression of a woman by several men. I'm disgusted.

Today's episode brought a genuine LOL moment with Ali and Luke's comebacks to Casey's "two words no parents want to hear" comment.

Yeah that was a LOL moment. I liked the scenes today, except for the fact that there was no Noah. He could have easily fit on today's show. I wonder why he wasn't included. I really hope Jake Silbermann is not leaving, but Noah continues to be excluded most of the time. I don't think that bodes well.

That was a nice humorous touch in the middle of a foreboding conversation.Not so nice? Ali gets over being attacked, fist bumps Margo, and that's that? Way to trivialize, ATWT.

I haven't seen this discussed yet, but....Margo said today that she knows Mark's guilty but there's no proof....how about Casey's costume, which he can testify was gone, and Alison saw someone wearing in Mark's dorm room? They provided all the clues for the proof, but I guess they had to ingore it so Mark wouldn't be out of the picture yet.

Yeah, Casey's costume was a pretty big piece of evidence. But, hey, who needs actual logic when you're trying to move a plot along at breakneck speed?

Margo and Emily were great today, but like most of you, I was disappointed with how Ali's degradation was used to just move the story and then dismissed.

Also? I was really amused to see my colleague from SOD, Devin, put that Quick Take up today about Luke and Kevin. See? I'm not alone! LOL! (And, no, I have not discussed Luke's love life with Devin so there was no way for me to put the idea in his head.)

Given how nice Kevin's being about the gay thing--or, I guess I should say, given how adamant he is that it's not an issue to him and he doesn't want it to be an issue in the campaign--I pray that the show will resist the temptation to have him turn out gay. Can't a straight guy not be homophobic and still be straight? Or do they all have to be jerks like Mark?

Yep, by the end of the episode, Ali seemed to have shaken it off and was ready to jump right back into the mess that got her in trouble in the first place. Casey too for that matter.

Regarding Noah, I don't see where he could've fit in today's show. Lurking in the background during Luke's scenes with Kevin? They would have taken on a completely different context. Being Debbie Downer when Luke, Ali and Kevin were deciding to continue the fight (which Noah would have been against and the fairly lighthearted scene wouldn't have been the same). So Noah, in the scenes as written, he had no place there. They would've been very different if he had of. If a character not being in a certain place meant they were getting fired or leaving, this cast would be pretty paltry. This may be shocking, but it's not always about Noah (or Luke for that matter).

I don't know if Kevin will turn out to be gay or not, but I'm not seeing the problem if he does. It will make the story much more interesting. It certainly doesn't send a bad message, IMO. It actually would be realistic. We've all known guys like Kevin who turn out to be gay. Some of us used to be even be him.

I think sometimes it's good for Luke to have scenes with Alison and Casey that don't necessarily involve being part of an "and." When they're together as a foursome, it forcibly pairs up Ali and Casey like they're on a double date. Just hangin' with Luke, it's more like "Oh, it's Susan's kid and Margo's kid and Lily's kid getting into shenanigans!"

Re: straight guys not being homophobic jerks, there's plenty of examples of that outside of Kevin and Mark. Aaron, Casey, Luke's other male friends and family... they're all straight and incredibly open-minded. Mark is so cartoonishly homophobic (much like Winston was) that it pales in comparison. I think that's why Kevin being so torn and having ambiguous feelings about Luke's sexuality is so compelling to me. It's not black and white and, therefore, feels more organic.

I love Noah, but I didn't miss him in the scenes with Luke yesterday. It would've been nice if we had seen Noah in a scene with maybe Dusty or Aaron or something.I enjoyed the Luke/Casey/Ali/Margo/Emily/Kevin part of the episode. The rest was a little boring. I didn't watch it last night but this morning because last night I was in the theater, seeing the musical Sunset Boulevard. That was definitly more entertaining than Paul vs. Dusty.

Quote:Re: straight guys not being homophobic jerks, there's plenty of examples of that outside of Kevin and Mark. Aaron, Casey, Luke's other male friends and family... they're all straight and incredibly open-minded. Mark is so cartoonishly homophobic (much like Winston was) that it pales in comparison.And this is exactly whey I think it makes more sense to keep Kevin straight and no questions asked. In reality who are Luke's other friends lol? All we have seen are people who are either incredibly open and understanding from the beginning or they are raging homophobes. There hasn't been any middle ground and that is part of what has made this all so unrealistic. I think it would be far more interesting to show Kevin as someone who had a major problem with Luke being gay initially but that had matured and learned and now doesn't "fear" Luke. I think it would be more interesting to show he had evolved and not because he has now realized he is gay but that he got past his initial fears and prejudices and is also comfortable enough with is own sexuality that he and Luke could once again be friends. Let him realize the only difference between himself and Luke is his sexual preference but that Luke is still the same guy he was friends with before. Otherwise it seems to send the message that if you don't like or understand gays now, there is no hope you ever will unless it turns out you too are gay.I guess part of it is I'm also tired of some wanting everyone that enters a story with Luke to be gay. Many wanted Casey to be gay after his prison time and since he and Matt were so close, they must be a gay couple. Then it was Brian who must be a closeted gay. Now it's Kevin.Also if they were to make Kevin gay, then I suspect he would wind up in a triangle with Luke and ultimately either Kevin or Noah is out once the triangle is over depending on who they decided to keep Luke with.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, WorldTurner. You make wonderful points, many of which I have tried to make but failed to do so quite as eloquently as you have. I agree completely.And enough with this wondering if people are gay business! If a character is gay, fine--let it be known. Reg is gay. Tony is gay. If the show wants to add more out-and-proud gay characters, fine. But this guessing game is played out.

I think what it boils down to, at least for me, is that I'd like to see other options for Luke, be it Kevin or someone else. I like Noah, but I'd like for Luke to see what else is out there. Noah may be his destiny, but let's play the field a bit first.

You mentioned Matt and Casey. I'm not sure, but I think most people were just joking. I think people understand that Casey is straight and has always been straight.For me it was just something to joke about: Matt+Casey= Masey 2.0. But I never wanted Casey to really be gay.And I agree, I think a story about Kevin and Luke becoming friends again without the "surprise! I'm gay too!" twist would be a lot more interesting.

Quote:I think what it boils down to, at least for me, is that I'd like to see other options for Luke, be it Kevin or someone else. I like Noah, but I'd like for Luke to see what else is out there. Noah may be his destiny, but let's play the field a bit first. I can totally understand you're wanting that. Sadly not many characters actually play the field. If they bring somebody else on for Luke, I see it being short term or unfortunately Noah disappearing. I could be wrong but I don't see them developing a whole other direction for Noah if Luke is involved with somebody else. It's not just because Noah has no family in Oakdale but he's never had any story outside of Luke. Maybe if they could first establish them in story with more characters then down the road it would be easier to bring on somebody else. I hope the friendship with Casey and Alison continues past this story but I have my doubts about that.

November 4th - OUTSTANDING show today. Van's Emmy reel just got bigger, maybe Jake's too. They did such a good job today. I'm glad they let us into Luke's mind today and told us what's motivating him to do what he's doing, that was a missing element of this story until today. Van and Jake's performances, and the character motivations we saw in both Luke and Noah today have made this story so much better. As for Brad, all he would have to do, is get Katie to testify that she saw Spencer buying sexy clothes....then Brad could describe what she had on, and the clerk could describe what she bought. The descriptions would match, the paper trail of the purchase is in place, and Brad's off the hook. But oh well, too much brain power means no story I guess.

I was half watching and half working and ended up catching Van's Sad Little Luke Face. I have to go back through and watch the whole episode with my full attention!

Van was terrific. He made you feel and understand why Luke did what he did and feels how he feels, even though he was wrong in what he did. He does facial expressions that say everything that needs to be said. It's too bad he wouldn't listen to Noah, who showed in what he had to say just how far he's come and developed as a person. Very good writing and acting. And I continue to love Casey, even though there isn't a naughty thing he won't pass up doing. And the final scene between them..... Noah looked so sad and disappointed. It's the beginning of the end for those two for sure. I'd be surprised if Noah was still at home when Luke got there. Good show though.... and it's nice to have a real story and plausible story and conflict for these two to deal with.

I respectfully disagree about this being the beginning of the end for them. The reason why I disagree is because that even though Noah is disappointed in him I don't see him being soo disappointed that he would leave Luke. Do I think that they will have a bump road for the rest of November? Yes, they will have bumpy month. However, I think that their love is strong enough to survive this and that in the end it will bring them even closer together.